Ox-cart chatter: reader comment highlights VI, a debate over whether Xie Daoyun is a good match for Chen Caozhi (excellent)

Reader 090606045653623 believed Xie Daoyun could only be Chen Caozhi's friend, not his Ideal Match, for the following reasons:

-Actually, whichever way you looked at it, to "fall in love" with someone like Xie Daoyun really did-er-take tremendous courage. To put it unkindly, someone like her, in modern times, would turn into an Abbess Miejue type at the slightest romantic setback.

Some people said Miss Lu had no personality. Personality?? Ha ha, a girl with personality could be admired and followed with interest, but personality wasn't something to wield against your own boyfriend/husband. Miss Lu in the book never revealed her worries in front of Caozhi. Did she not understand the difficulties they faced? Not at all. She expressed her thoughts both to her stepmother and to Caozhi's sister-in-law, showing that she had known the difficulties facing them from the beginning, but would never let Caozhi worry.

There was a passage in the book describing Caozhi and Miss Lu reuniting after Third Madam. The two murmured softly to each other, discussing neither poetry and books nor abstruse philosophy, only the little things back home, the lake and scenery of their hometown. This was how two people in love should get along. Was it that Miss Lu knew nothing of calligraphy and painting? Nothing of the Book of Songs?? Obviously not.

By contrast, that Xie Daoyun-honestly, suppose you were Caozhi, spending time with her. When you were in the mood: come on, let's play a game of Go, debate some philosophy. Just like playing video games or football with your friends: nice, entertaining. But would she find talking to you about that Run'er or whatever lake or island back home interesting? -Of course, the author could turn his pen and say Xie Daoyun "listened with a smile, utterly absorbed," but unfortunately, judging by her personality, that would actually be impossible. Someone like Xie Daoyun was a modern Hillary, an ancient Wu Zetian, not a good partner.

Although Chen Caozhi attracted two great beauties with his talent, in Xie Daoyun's case, that was because she found him intelligent, learned, eloquent, and skilled in debate. Add to that this favored daughter of heaven's refusal to admit defeat, and that was why she kept seeking him out for "contests" at first, progressing from initial "pride" to "admiration" and finally affection. In other words, had Chen Caozhi merely played the xiao well that day, without conquering her in philosophical argument and on the Go board, Xie Daoyun would simply have thought him so-so. What Xie felt for Chen Caozhi was an attachment to the strong: she felt that only this Chen Caozhi's "talent" in all the world could be worthy of her. In fact, when she later used debates to frighten off suitors, had she encountered an equally dashing, handsome, learned, and eloquent young talent, she probably would have accepted him-what Xie Daoyun wanted was a "favored son of heaven" stronger than herself.

Now, however, let's look at Miss Lu. She and Chen Caozhi met because of flowers. Miss Lu never considered whether this man was a gifted scholar or stronger than herself. To her, Chen Caozhi was initially just a rare friend who loved flowers as she did. (This was a major difference from Xie Daoyun. Xie kept "insisting" on and "forcing" herself into being Chen's friend, although it was fundamentally unrealistic. Yet Xie refused to face her true feelings or reality; her "unconventionality" was merely an escape. Lu, on the other hand, initially regarded Chen only as a friend who "shared the same stink." When Lu discovered she had fallen for Chen, she could face herself and reality honestly-it wasn't Xie but Lu who was closer to a modern person!!!)

I've wandered off topic. As I said above, Lu and Chen shared an interest from the outset. Miss Lu didn't care how clever Chen was or how formidable a debater; she simply enjoyed discussing flowers and little everyday things with him, rather than saying, as Xie did, "Brother Chen, let's debate the Analects tonight." In fact, when Chen and Lu met, Lu's painting skills were still far superior to Chen Caozhi's, but Lu didn't care. In one chapter, Lu even deliberately hid her paintings so that people wouldn't compare her with Chen. Note that the two hadn't even established their relationship at that point. During the same period, however, Xie, disguised as Zhu Yingtai, was constantly calculating how to defeat Chen at Go, imagining that after beating him she "could get Chen to come looking for her to play, preserving at least a little reserve." Which of the two was an Ideal Match was plain at a glance.

Of course, if one insisted on arranging a story pairing a talented scholar with a talented woman, that would be perfectly possible. But to put it in terms I've used when chatting with friends in real life, the reason those "career women" so often remained single wasn't that they didn't understand tenderness or consideration, nor that they weren't beautiful-the fundamental reason was that being with them was exhausting! These women were certainly very capable themselves and would keep striving to improve. As friends, we appreciated and admired them. But they would also demand that their boyfriends/husbands be stronger than they were, forcing you to keep fighting for your life too. I'm not saying we men should find lazy women who did nothing all day, but a career-minded man would have his own plans, while also wanting his partner to trust him wholeheartedly. At the same time, as men, while working hard, we also hoped that even if we failed, our wives could remain beside us without minding at all.

Returning to the story, if someone more handsome, intelligent, learned, and eloquent than Chen Caozhi appeared, would Xie still refuse to marry? Maybe yes, maybe no. Xie Daoyun was "debating to find a husband" in Wuyi Lane. If a son of a great family really won, what would she do? Change her tune and say, "I was joking; we were all just playing"??

By contrast, look at what Miss Lu said under intense pressure from her family: "If I hadn't met Master Chen, perhaps I would have married him. But now that we've met, xxxxxxxx." (I won't type out all that mushy stuff :D. Everyone should remember it well.)

And people still said Miss Lu had no personality, and Chen and Xie ought to be together??

Below was reader Fragrance Fills the Sleeves' rebuttal of the view that Xie Daoyun was not Chen Caozhi's Ideal Match:

Xie's feelings for Chen developed gradually. At first, Xie merely appreciated Chen Caozhi's music. Debating with Chen thoroughly stirred Miss Xie's competitive spirit. As the two interacted as fellow students, their friendship gradually deepened.

There were some people who might not leave a very good impression on you when you first met them, but only as you slowly came to know them better would you understand their substance and depth. Clearly, Xie was such a woman. Her arrogance during her studies and her refusal to socialize with her classmates certainly had to do with her aloof nature and her aristocratic dignity, but it also had to do with her disguise as a man. Unless necessary, she could not associate with too many classmates, lest she give herself away. Xie was aloof, sharp-tongued, and relentless when she had the right of an argument, but as their acquaintance deepened, she slowly revealed her true nature. That layer of disguise was only shown to people she neither admired nor liked. Toward those she admired, she still had a very approachable, friendly side.

Some people said Xie Daoyun's feelings toward Chen Caozhi arose merely from her criteria for a husband: she wanted a man stronger than herself. I truly found that laughable. Apparently this reader had taken the Jin dynasty for the twenty-first century. In the past, women's marriages primarily depended on matching family standing. The Xie family was a great aristocratic clan, whereas Chen at that time still came from a humble, non-aristocratic family. Whatever criteria she used, they would never have led her to Chen Caozhi. Xie Daoyun, a daughter of an aristocratic family educated by Xie An from childhood, did not initially approach Chen Caozhi in the capacity of a woman seeking acquaintance. Rather, she came to know him out of a love of music and an appreciation of his talent. It had absolutely nothing to do with any supposed selection of a husband.

For a woman to disguise herself to study was also a violation of accepted principles in the Jin dynasty. Xie Daoyun wanted to hear Chen Caozhi play the flute and wanted to know him. Disguising herself was her only way to make his acquaintance, yet someone actually used this to criticize Miss Xie, saying she did not show people her true face. Truly laughable.

Only after getting to know Chen Caozhi more deeply did Xie Daoyun's appreciation turn into love. Such changes in feeling were not something a person could control. Xie herself had not anticipated such an outcome at the beginning.

One reader said, "But in Xie Daoyun's case, that was because she found Chen Caozhi intelligent, learned, eloquent, and skilled in debate. Add to that this favored daughter of heaven's refusal to admit defeat, and that was why she kept seeking him out for 'contests' at first, progressing from initial 'pride' to 'admiration' and finally affection. In other words, had Chen Caozhi merely played the xiao well that day, without conquering her in philosophical argument and on the Go board, Xie Daoyun would simply have thought him so-so." The attraction of talent was indeed a very important factor. If Chen Caozhi had not possessed such talent, of course he could not have attracted Xie Daoyun, because it was Chen Caozhi's music that had drawn her in the first place. But did being attracted by someone's talent, admiring and appreciating their exceptional gifts, constitute dependence on the strong? I really found this reader's interpretation difficult to understand. Xie Daoyun engaged in philosophical discussion and debate in Wuyi Lane to refuse marriage, and even more to fulfill her vow to Chen Caozhi to "remain his confidante for life." Otherwise, as a daughter of a great family, what means did she have to escape marriage? This was one way she dealt with her family's demands that she marry. Supposing someone really did defeat her in debate and she was forced to marry, that did not mean she would love her husband. In ancient times, marriage was not equivalent to love. Thus, whether she accepted or refused did not mean she would love the other person.

That reader also said, "Honestly, suppose you were Caozhi, spending time with that Xie Daoyun. When you were in the mood: come on, let's play a game of Go, debate some philosophy. Just like playing video games or football with your friends: nice, entertaining. But would she find talking to you about that Run'er or whatever lake or island back home interesting?" Let me also be honest: clearly, you were not Caozhi. In the text, Caozhi was not entirely unaware of Xie's feelings, nor was he entirely unmoved. Several times, Caozhi sighed that having Xie Daoyun as his confidante was enough for a lifetime. At Chen Family Cove, when Xie left, Caozhi reluctantly saw her off; Xie was not the only one unwilling to part. In chapter thirty-four, "Deep affection," of volume two, Xie Daoyun came to Chen Family Cove again. When Chen Caozhi saw Miss Xie, whom he had thought he would never see again, the book said, "He suddenly felt an ache in his heart and only said, 'I've seen Brother Yingtai again.'" The subtle feelings between the two were portrayed extremely well in that chapter, and this precisely proved that Chen Caozhi was not unmoved by Xie. Later, their cooperation in Wuyi Lane, their mutual appreciation and the fellow feeling between kindred spirits, their tacit understanding-such feelings, though not romantic love, were not inferior to it in the least. As for why Caozhi had not yet developed romantic love for Xie, I thought it was because Caozhi loved Lu Weiwei, not because Xie was unsuitable as a wife, as this reader claimed. The text mentioned their time together on many occasions, and apart from those first few encounters, it was always very pleasant. Besides, however talented someone might be, they were no immortal. How could they discuss only lofty principles and turn a blind eye to life? Even the sage Confucius had a humorous, everyday side. Could Xie Daoyun not discuss topics such as Run'er or some lake or island back home? In the text, through his diligence and love of learning, Caozhi had long since come to stand shoulder to shoulder with history's literary men and poets. He was by no means an ordinary mediocrity or a time traveler who stole from later generations to pose as a man of culture. Chen Caozhi and Xie Daoyun shared the same aspirations, interests, and tastes when they were together. Supposing they were a couple in love, why couldn't Xie be Chen's Ideal Match? Of course, this was only a supposition. At present, the person Chen Caozhi loved was Lu Weiwei, and his feelings for Xie were more friendship than romantic love. As for how things would develop later, that was San Chi's business. I would be happy to see it happen.